We've had to deal with Kodak shedding 20,000 workers. It's a reality we have to deal with. We have to place this in context and get along with life.

In that case, workers need to face the reality that they could be laid off without a package if the company goes under down the road.

We drew on plans borrowed from Buffalo,

People walk over and say, 'Is this real?' ... And I say, 'Yes, it's a real copy.'

This dovetails nicely with what we're doing. Our role is to help Wal-Mart workers get a voice on the job.

I think that in reality, the benefits that we have to come up with to get skilled workers or entry-level workers are a burden on our profits in the first place.