You get these debates in local communities and it is part of the wider debate - about how Maori and other people are going to articulate with each other in New Zealand and that can be a painful interface,

Perhaps we've been a bit serious about our history in the past, a bit pious. I think maybe we focused before on the gloomier sides of our history, the entanglements that didn't work, the land wars and the things that went awry.

The debate is quite exciting. I would much rather that we're sitting there having a vehement argument than there was just sullen silence around these issues. It's part of trying to work it all out.

The things that they do I never would have dreamt of - it's quite exciting to see that. It's almost like a string of crackers - you light the first one but what happens after that is anyone's guess.

People are bouncing across boundaries - we are starting to have fun with our history rather than seeing it as something we have to castigate ourselves for.

The prime minister has just fallen off the high wire.