NOLS also helped because they have such incredibly intimate knowledge about that part of the forest -- perhaps better than the agency itself.

NOLS had an impact in two ways. They broadened the debate beyond purely environmental concerns like clean air and water, to include jobs and tourism.

What this means is that millions of Americans are going to drive through the Upper Green Valley headed for the national parks or wilderness areas - and their views of these mountains are going to be smudged.

That would have set a new precedent. We've overemphasized historically the lawsuit tool.

I think we'll be considering lawsuits.

You can do all those sorts of things. It's sort of mind games and a bit of fun. And if it all comes off, it's wonderful. And if it doesn't come off, you're stupid. It's as simple as that.